WOW. Thank you. I am literally just starting and your insight is quite helpful. In our brief exchange you have helped me realize a couple of my mistakes. 1)I am roasting at too high a temp (350 F until I hear the beans crack) and 2) not allowing the chocolate to rest.
How many times do you pass the roasted nibs/liquor through the processor? Is there such a thing as too much?
I wish you the best of luck in your business!
Hi again Daniel,
I am just starting my business, I don' t have a lot of practical experience. I know that roasting is very important and if the temperature is high the beans become very bitter; what is the temperature and the time you chose ?
You write that you use different type of beans, and do you find that all are bitter or just some of them ?
I use also a convection oven, I roast the beans at 130C for 20minutes, and I think it's ok.
I learnt that after conching resting is necessary to remove bitterness, I think 2-3 weeks is good, at room temperature. And only then you can temper it.
Maria- Thank you! I've been experimenting with a number of different types of beans. I have a convection oven for roasting. I have not been letting it rest. How longdo you recommend after conching? What is the best"resting"/storage method? Do you let it rest and THEN temper it? Agasin, thank you.
What type of beans do you use ? How do you roast the beans ?
After grinding, and conching, does your chocolate rest for some days or weeks ? This time is necessary to eliminate bitterness and acidity.
I am struggling some with "bitterness". My thinking is that I am running the nibs through the Juicer too many times trying to get the cocoa liquor yield up.
Could this be the cause of the bitterness? If so, howmany passes should I run?
Thanks for any feedback.
Hello Clay !
Thank you very much for all the information. I learnt a lot of things from what you wrote. So, conching is very particular and personal process. It's up to me to determinate the taste that I am looking for. Very creative process !
Thank you again !
Maria: There is no direct correlation between conching time and quality across machine types. Modern conches are built in a way to produces very high quality results in surprisingly short periods of time.
How long you conche depends on a lot of factors, based on the flavor profile you are looking to achieve. The beans you use provide the starting point, and proper roasting is the first phase. Different roasts will bring out different flavors which will be affected differently by the conching. When starting out, check every hour for the first 4-8 hours and you will be astonished at the change. From there, every couple of hours for the next 24-36 hours (if you are using one of the CocoaTown machines or Santha, or longitudinal conche).
The challenge is to get the flavor you want in the same time frame as getting the texture right. You can overdo either quite easily.
The key point is that 72 hours (or 96 hours) is not better because it's longer. It's very possible that at 72 hours all of the "life" in the chocolate will be evaporated out. As a chocolate maker, it's up to you to determine what results you're looking to achieve and to experiment until you hit upon the combination of times and temperatures that deliver the results you want. You want to conche for exactly the right amount of time that is correct for the chocolate you are making. It may be different for different chocolates.
One thing you can do to affect conche times is to blow (warm) air into the conche bowl. This can accelerate the evaporation of undesirable aromas (such as acetic acid). This can shorten conche times by getting flavor development ahead of texture development.
Hi Mark,
thank you for you advices ! I will try to conch for more than 48 hours, to see the difference. May be later if I buy another grinder or a conche, I can do it easily and all the time.
Traditionally chocolate was conched for 72 hours. If you continue to conch, I've tried for 5 days, the flavor continues to change, developing some very nice notes. The rate of change starts to plateau outin 72 hrs, why it was how long tradition did it. Try a batch, pulling once a day for the 5 days. You'll be amazed. It comes down to your desired taste, versus how long you can afford to do it.
Hi Duffy,
Thank you very much for your answer. So in less than 48 hours I can have some good chocolate. As I don't want to add emulsifiers I was worried that I had to grind and refine the liquor more than 48 hours.
Hope that I will have my grinder soon !
Thanks again !
Hi Maria,
I have a Cocoa Town grinder and I normally grind the nibs by themselves for 12 hours before adding sugar and heat. AFter 12 hours you should have something pretty tasty and it should also improve over the next hours. Give it 24 hours and keep tasting every hour or so until you think it is ready. The amount of time you need depends on how you like your chocolate and how long you can wait!
Duffy
Hello !
I am just starting a small business ( beans to bars) in Bulgaria. I will use the grinder from CocoaT and I would like to ask you how long it takes the process of grinding and developing flavours. 2 days is ok ? or more ?
Hope that people who use the same grinder, can give me more information.
Thank you in advance !
Maria
Came across their website today and it looks fantastic. As anyone tried their chocolate. This couple is my role model.
If you can so a google search, can't copy and paste web address.
It's my pleasure. Let us know what you end up getting and how it is working for you when you are start enrobing. There is a definitely an adjustment period while you figure out how the machine works. After that, you will be happy you have an enrober.
Hi Lana,
I've seen the Selmi's vibrating table with scraper in action and that seems pretty convenient. If Perfect can create that for you, that seems like a good thing to consider.
I really don't know too much about the other features. What I can tell you is that when you are enrobing with a wheel machine, it is good to have the tempering unit at least half full of chocolate. If you are planning on a very long enrobing session , it is good to have another source of melted chocolate. I simply use a 6kg Mol D'art melter full of chocolate and that keeps me stocked enough at my current capacity which is around 3500 bon bons per enrobing session.
Hi Lana, I also have the Perfect and have the cover. I usually don't run with the cover down. I like to see what is going on and it seems like one piece is aways flipping over at just the wrong time. Unlike Daniel, I rarely take my machine apart. When I am finished for the day and not planning on using it the next day, I just shut it down after running the belt with the blower on for a few minutes. I definitely would get the cover. It has a ceramic heater in it to help keep everything melted. Don't expect an operators manual. There are a few pages of instructions, but not much in the way of help. You will have to figure out most everything on your own. I spent 3 months fighting the temperature, figuring that the machine just wasn't made to maintain temp like I wanted. With a little experimenting, I found that the temp probe was wired backwards! After that was corrected, it was much better. Oliver is very good at trouble shooting on the phone
As Daniel has said, it is a basic machine. It does most everything I need it to. Freight to Utah was about $700, 18 months ago. That included customs. I also have an 80# Hilliard without the enrober. I think the Perfect is about as easy to temper as the Hilliard. When running the enrober for several hours, I have to add melted chocolate to keep the level up. I just pour this through the wire belt.
Hi Lana,
Congratulations on getting close to a big purchase. I do indeed have a polycarbonate cover on my compact coater. I bought my machine used -- I believe my machine was built in 1999. It did not come with a the heating element that is now offered on the cover. If I were to buy a new machine, I would definitely go for that extra option. This kind of heating element is found on some of the much more expensive Savy Goiseau and LCM machines. I imagine It will help keep your belt free of any chocolate build up.
Event though I have the cover, I often enrobe with the cover open. I like to enrobe in a warm room, around 70 degrees. There are winter days when I need the cover -- For example, when someone opens the door on a very cold day, the room temperature really drops. Having a good cover is like having 4 wheel drive on my car. I don't use it often, but when I need it I am glad that I have it. Getting a heated cover can only help you more. Good luck with your decision!
Mike,
Thanks for your comments. Can you tell us how one prevents chocolate build up on the Selmi while enrobing? That was the only flaw I saw in the Selmi.
I own a Prefamac 30 kg wheel machine with enrober, detailer and blower. Takes some practice to operate but am quite happy with the results I get. Sure, you do get more bells and whistles with a more expensive machine with automatic tempering, but you are going to pay $10k to $15k more. I don't have any issues with keeping the chocolate in temper as Daniel mentions; as long as you know how to work with chocolate it's pretty easy to keep temper all day. With two people operating the machine, I can do 800-1,000 pieces an hour. With the ceramic heat lamps that can be placed close to the chocolate, there is no or very little buildup on the belt or elsewhere even with the blower running.You can read more of my responses on this forum.. http://www.thechocolatelife.com/forum/topics/if-selmi-is-the-cadala...
The plastic cover is available on the Selmi but it's not the cover that provides all the warmth to melt the chocolate at the end of your session. Savy also has a heater (it's in the picture if you know where to look). When you get your training on the Selmi, they will show you how to avoid the buildup at the end of your session. Really easy.
I have seen on some pictures of the Selmi enrobing line set up that you can have a cover.
http://selmi-chocolate.it/images/products/tunnel_300_400.jpg .
Thanks George,
That makes sense. I believe that having a heat shield on an enrober is a definite plus. The Savy and the LCM both have it. It is especially helpful when your room gets a little to cold. My little Perfect enrober actually has a polycarbonate shield. That's an option that you can order for the machine.
The reason why the Selmi will be prone to chocolate build up is because there is no plastic cover over the belt. If you look at the two pictures below, you will see the Savvy has a plastic cover over the belt, which creates a warm atmosphere which keeps all the chocolate on the belt melted, whereas the Selmi does not have this feature.
http://tomric.com/image/cache/data/equipment/A-1300A-500x500.jpg
http://solegraells.com/tienda/images/101027.jpg
A top chocolatier once told me the Savvy is the machine to have, however it is even more expensive than the Selmi.
Hi Pierre,
Sounds like you have an interesting decision. I hear good things about the hilliards in terms of their reliability and how easy it is to replace missing parts (through a simple visit to the hardware store). I have never seen one in action, but checked out the website just a few minutes ago. The Hilliards Compact Coater seems like a good system. I notice there are a good number of used Hilliards on the market. Should you ever plan a trip to Chicago, just let me know and I can hopefully show you my enrober in action. Hopefully, this will be your last holiday season hand dipping!
Daniel,
Thank you for your great response. I've been away from the site for a few days hand dipping. LOL. Your last paragraph is exactly where we are at out shop. We currently have three Hilliards (Papa bear, Momma Bear and Baby Bear or Little Dipper) and have worked through the tempering issues with them. Jim @ Hilliards has been a great help with that. We too are dreaming of a Selmi under the Christmas Tree but don't expect one. We are hanging in there with production, but are at the point where we need an enrober to get to the next level. As I mentioned we looked at the Perfect Enrober in Philly, we looked at the Hilliard's 6" coater and at other options. We don't have the capital to just order a Selmi, but we need to look at all options to bridge the gap. That is why your response was so helpful. We know that any machine takes time to learn and tweak to fit our needs. We are doing molded, truffles, hard ganaches, etc, so we need a well rounded machine. I had also heard the negative comments about the wheel and over-crystalization so it was good to hear that with a little practice and patience it works fine.
You gave me much info so now I have another potential option. Will see if there are any used enrobers out there. Wish us luck.
Again, many thanks for all of your time .
Pierre
Hi Lana,
Thanks for responding to the post. Overall, I think the Selmi machines are great and I would certainly consider it as the next machine I might get. I focus mostly on enrobed items versus molded so the function of the enrober is paramount for me. Selmi seems to be extremely versatile and probably has the dosing device you are looking for. As for the belt not staying warm, I just saw that it had a lot of build up at the end of the enrobing session. With that said, it enrobed great. I would love it if other selmi owners or a rep could comment on keeping the belt warm as these people know the machines a lot better than me. As for the Perfect enrober, I don't get a lot of build up. There is no heating device on the belt itself; however, I do keep an eye on it and will use the heat gun to keep it in check. As I mentioned, I also have the blower often operating at a warm temperature so that probably helps too.
If I could pick a dream machine, it would probably be a LCM enrober which are made in Germany. Even if I had the money, what could keep me from getting one is that there does not seem to be a lot of technical support in the USA should something happen. That's just my assumption. Another benefit of the Selmi is that technical support seems pretty good here in the states.
I look forward to hearing what you decide is best for your business. Considering that you have a lot of experience hand tempering and hand dipping, I am sure that you will be successful with whatever machine you decide to get.
Hi Pierre,
Thanks for your post! I would love to respond in detail about the Perfect Enrober. As chocolatiers, we often have to purchase expensive equipment without having had the opportunity to take it for a test drive. What is great about this forum is that we can share what are experiences with equipment have been.
If you can afford a Selmi, it sounds like a great investment. Everyone I know who has one loves it. I would love to have one, but it probably does not qualify as my dream machine. I have seen the enrobing attachment in use on the "Futura" machine at the Barry Callebaut Chocolate Academy. At the end of the enrobing session there was a lot of chocolate build up on the belt because there was nothing keeping the belt warm. I would love to hear from other selmi owners if they have had this problem. I also saw the Savy Goiseau enrober in use and it did not have this problem.
To answer your question... I highly recommend a Perfect Compact Coater as an entry level enrober. Comparing the Perfect enrober to the Selmi is like comparing a Honda Civic to a brand new Range Rover. One will have a lot more luxuries and even be able to haul more stuff, but they will both get you where you want to go. Both enrobers will bring your daily production of chocolate from the hundreds to the thousands. During an enrobing session on the Perfect enrober, I get around 3500 centers coated with a thin chocolate coating and no feet. When I was looking for an enrober, I wanted a machine that could achieve a thin coating and the Perfect machine is the cheapest machine (and the only one I could afford) that could make this happen. Although the Perfect enrober operates through manual tempering versus automatic, it does have a blower and a detailer rod which are fundamental to creating a chocolate coating that is thin and polished looking. Now that I have owned the machine for 2 years, I get very good results. At first I did not get good results because I bought my machine used and it took me several months to realize I was missing a detailer rod. My machine did not come with a manual and I finally hired someone to take a look at the machine and give it a tune up.
Let me tell a little about using the machine... The night before I enrobe, I fill the machine with chocolate callets and let them melt overnight. At this point, only the wheel is on the machine and the enrobing attachment is not attached yet. When I come in the morning, I temper the chocolate directly in the machine through the seeding method. It takes me about 30 minutes or so. If you can temper chocolate in a bowl with spatula, you can temper chocolate in a big tank with a wheel. My tank holds around 40 pounds of chocolate. When the chocolate is tempered, I attach the 2 belts (one belt sends the chocolate through, the other is the exit belt with the paper take off). Attaching the belt, the blower, and the spout takes about 5-7 minutes. Then we do a couple of test runs to make sure that the chocolate curtains are flowing well and that the chocolates exit the belt without any feet. We also adjust the vibration of the belt to allow for the best coating.
I know that many people are concerned about having a wheel machine. I certainly was at first. I thought that I would be spending a lot of time fixing over crystallized chocolate with a heat gun. I don't. My enrobing sessions usually last around 8-12 hours and I usually am able to manage the chocolate without any big problems or using the heat gun much. I keep the chocolate at the best temperature and viscosity by adjusting the blower temperature. When the temperature begins to drop, I simply turn the dial on the blower to blow warm air. When the chocolate gets on the warm side, I turn the blower down to a cooler temperature. I use a heat gun about once every 2 hours just to keep everything in check and I usually use it only just for a minute or two. What is key is to make sure the room you are enrobing in is not too cool. 70 degrees farenhite is a good temperature. Last winter when it was 5 below outside, the chocolate got thick because the door was being open too often and our production room got really cold. I remedied the problem by adding warm chocolate so it is a good idea to keep a melter on hand with warm chocolate. I have a 6kg Mol d'Art melter. As for keeping a good temper, it is not a big issue so long as you have a good understanding of how chocolate works and what it needs.
When enrobing is done, I take off the belt and all the other parts. I rent space from a large wholesale bakery where there is a large dishwasher. I put the wheel and the chocolate covered belt in there and the parts come out as clean as a whistle. The pan that holds the chocolate is extremely easy to clean and I scrape the remaing chocolate into a bowl. The pan to the tempering unit (which is like a deep hotel pan) goes right in the dishwasher. The smaller parts I wash by hand. When I am able to get my own facility, I will definitely invest in a dishwasher!
Prior to buying the enrober, I was hand dipping and it was very time consuming. Although the machine I own is the most basic enrober, it has greatly increased what I can produce and using the enrober has become my favorite part of the chocolate making process. I certainly dream of getting an enrober with continuous tempering and a larger belt. When that day comes, I will still use the Perfect enrober as a secondary machine -- probably for enrobing in milk chocolate. The machine is pretty basic and the people that run the company in Quebec are very accomodating should you have any problems or need any parts. Considering that this machine costs around $11,000 brand new and that the enrobers with continuous tempering start at $30k, you get a lot of bang for your buck. Good luck with making your decision. Please feel free to ask me any further questions.
I'm dreaming of a Selmi with Enrober. Our business is growing to the point that it may shift from a dream to a necessity. The question I have for you is about your Perfect Enrober. We looked at it in Philly last year. You mentioned that it is a good entry level enrober. Why? BTW.We are currently using Hillard's and hand dipping.
Pierre
I believe it's a good thing to visualize your dream happening. Imagine your chocolate business is booming and you need to buy the very best machinery to keep up. What would you get? A Selmi, LCM, Nova Choc, Savy Goiseau, Sollich, etc...? At the moment, I currently have a Perfect Equipment Enrober and I think it is an excellent entry level enrober. Of course, I would not mind upgrading when the time is right and the money is there. I would be very interested to hearing others' thoughts.
Has anyone here had a chance to use one? Thoughts?
Scott -
Thanks for the update on this. Given Walsh's history (which Dr Martin lays out in exquisite detail in her post), I have trouble believing that anyone would do business with him. I have never met him, so maybe he's intensely charismatic. I have met people like that and I know intelligent, diligent, investors who've plunked down large chunks of cash on things that, to someone with some inside knowledge of chocolate would know instantly to be false.
I see that the article was updated today with some new photos posted by Steve DeVries of the Biosana project. Kudos to all who are working to expose what appears to be a huge fraud and con.
As some may have noticed, last month Jim Walsh was sued by Deepak Chopra for fraud. Carla Martin--a postdoc fellow at Harvard with an abiding professional interest in chocolate--posted something of a dossier on Walsh at her web site, Bittersweet Notes . She concisely covers all of the bases: the Hawaiian Vintage Chocolate scandal, the formation of Intentional Chocolate and spurious claims on its behalf, the failed (and possibly fraudulent) Maya Biosana project in Mexico, the HESA Institute (a shell of a new age think tank that eventually became entangled with the Chopra Foundation), culminating in Walsh's teaming up with Deepak Chopra to release a co-branded, intentionally infused chocolate bar.
The chocolate world is full of fraud and craziness, but this story combines the two and turns the dial to eleven. Check out Dr. Martin's post here .
Scott
this interested me because i am a long time meditator, and meditation has been shown to have measurable physical effects.....on the brains of meditators. whether those effects can be passed on to other entities in debatable, no scientific evidence exists that i know of, just a lot of new age mumbo jumbo. the "peer reviewed" article they refer to on their website is from theSeptember 2007issue of "explore, the journal of science and healing". the abstract did not impress and i'm not going to spend $12 to read the whole thing. it might or might not be real science.
but more importantly, with this as with most raw chocolate, as with many chocolates that tout "social consciousness" loudly, there is one glaring problem. from their web page:
IT SAYS NOTHING ANYWHERE ABOUT TASTE!!! chocolate is food! if taste doesn't come first then i don't buy the model. put aside all the environmentally / socially responsible and/or new age verbiage from any number of thousands of food products, be it organic, fair trade, RA, UTZ, intentional, ethical, raw, whatever, if it doesn't taste good people won't want to eat it. so if they don't start with taste and then go to the new age stuff, it probably isn't all that good and not much of their "intention" will make it into consumer's bodies. things tend to go where they're aimed and if the aim is "do no harm," not "make great chocolate," well, you'll get harmless mediocre chocolate probably.
This appears to be nonsense to me. Singular farming method is typical from what I know and the chocolate is expensive.
PT Barnum would be laughing his ass off if he wasn't dead.
Posted by BusinessWire (a Berkshire Hathaway company - BH also owns See's):
LOS ANGELES, Dec 08, 2011 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Intentional Chocolate's Organic + line is the first ever chocolate to be certified organic, use cocoa from Rainforest Alliance farms with the added bonus of carrying the official Intentional TM certification. The Organic + dark line is also certified Vegan and Kosher and is gluten free.
The press release goes on to state:
The chocolates [are] embedded with this new ingredient "Intention" have been shown to significantly decrease stress, increase calmness, and lessen fatigue in those who consume it. This is the result of findings from a scientific pilot study conducted by The HESA Institute (Human Energy System Alliance) and a full year of consumer testing. With the introduction of this groundbreaking new product, creator and founder Jim Walsh aims to create an entirely new category of chocolate that both enhances its already beneficial qualities and brings our understanding of nutrition to another level. Breakthrough licensed technology helps embed the focused good intentions of experienced meditators and then infuses those intentions into chocolate -- some who have trained with the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama himself stated, "I think this chocolate will bring great happiness to mankind." Their hope with Intentional Chocolate(TM) is to reintroduce this ancient wisdom and galvanize a shift in the food industry to bring greater health and food that restores us, renews us and heals us.
An interesting historical footnote here is that Intentional Chocolate creator and founder Jim Walsh was behind the somewhat infamous Hawaiian Vintage Chocolate company. The HVC web site is still up and running and is a confusing mish-mash of the original HVC vision and its new intentional direction. Can anyone tell me what's unusual about their singular farming method ?
Apart from all of the other claims, any thoughts on "intentional" chocolate and what a "breakthrough licensed technology helps embed the focused good intentions of experienced meditators" might look like? I am also kind of wondering if this happens before tempering and if the good intentions get locked in as the chocolate crystallizes ... or if the meditating over the chocolate happens after.
Your (intentional) thoughts?
Full release here .
Absolutely. Two particle size methods can be correlated - i've done it - keep in mind there are many, many variables you'll need to control. For the ball mill - how do you control the mass temperature and what is it? how many passes are you using? size and type of media? does it degrade into your product and change it's physical characteristics? do you have a way of measuring the particle size distribution that the ball mill results in, and a way to correlate that to what you get off the refiner(s)? What about residual moisture differences between the mills and it's impact? Are flavor differences important to you?
For the refiners - state of the crown, are you using the 2 roll as a pre-refiner followed by the 5 roll, or independently of one another? Are they hydraulics the same across the different adjustment points?
Does any of the above matter? Depending on what your goals are, they may not. Or they may be incredibly important.
Thanks. You just made a point I haven't fully considered.......''If you're not careful, not everything you do in the lab will translate into production if you use very different approaches''
If I use a ball mill as a refiner in the lab and 2and 5 roll refiners for mainstream production, can that turn out tohaveno correlation whatsoever if allI'm looking at is particle size and not impacton viscosity?
Also, right now I'm looking at more of a cocoamass to chocolate process line not bean to bar...so for now, roasting etc.. are not primary concerns. But is it possible to find say a 5Ib sample roaster?
Mary:
There is no lab-scale machinery at 20kg/hr throughput for chocolate production. Only batch. You can get continuous temperers in that capacity, but that's trivial compared with the machinery for producing chocolate.
Unfortunately, there is no "system" of equipment scaled to that is scaled to that level of production. You can get a 20kg "universal," but there no complementary options for roasting/cracking/winnowing and, optionally, pre-grinding. It's easy to find 1 tonne/hr winnowers, hard to find 20 kg/hr, for example. Easy to find 1 lb sample roasters, hard to find inexpensive 20kg roasters.
It's also probably a good idea to know how you want to scale up in terms of production method/equipment. If you're not careful, not everything you do in the lab will translate into production if you use very different approaches.
Do you have even a ballpark budget in mind? You can't do this for $10,000. You could easily do it for $100,000.
:: Clay
I should have been more specific.................equipment throughput should be about 20kg/batch( for batchwise machines) and 20kg/hr for continuous. The project now is strictly lab scale for development and testing of some products so nothing toolarge is needed.
Yes it will lead to and supportproduction on a much larger scale.
Thanks
Mary:
A few questions to help clarify for people who might look to answer this:
Capacity is 20kg ... per batch? One batch per week? One batch per day? More often? Less often?
Truly lab scale (for testing) or are you going into production for retail sale?
Does the lab-scale equipment lead to production at a much larger capacity?
:: Clay
